wegbrins — 02/19/2021 Is this alive? OwnerOfOwn — 02/19/2021 depeneds [1:37 PM] who is ever truly alive? 1 @OwnerOfOwn who is ever truly alive? wegbrins — 02/19/2021 He who does things and advances its project 3 [2:07 PM] I mean, the web seemed dead May 29, 2021 JoMXL — 05/29/2021 Hi everyone, just found out you guys have a discord channel, thought I'd come over and have a look. I'm a bit busy this month so will probably just be lurking for a while, but love the ideas on the OSE website. If I find the time I'd be happy to contribute where I can in the long term. June 21, 2021 Kelosi — 06/21/2021 Do you know what I find interesting? Bioethanol, bioplastics, and composite materials made from miscanthus. I've been following this group for a while, although activity seems to have somewhat decreased. But bioethanol seems like one of those things that off grid, open source groups might be interested in. You'd get fuel, plastics for 3d printing, like biopolyethanol and biopolypropanol, which are food safe, waterproof, and recyclable. With composite wood you could make load bearing materials, and transparent wood for winter greenhouses. And a miscanthus farm I contacted mentioned you can heat a 1 acre winter green house with 4 acres of miscanthus. So you'd get fuel, plastic for 3d printing, housing, AND food.(edited) @Kelosi Do you know what I find interesting? Bioethanol, bioplastics, and composite materials made from miscanthus. I've been following this group for a while, although activity seems to have somewhat decreased. But bioethanol seems like one of those things that off grid, open source groups might be interested in. You'd get fuel, plastics for 3d printing, like biopolyethanol and biopolypropanol, which are food safe, waterproof, and recyclable. With composite wood you could make load bearing materials, and transparent wood for winter greenhouses. And a miscanthus farm I contacted mentioned you can heat a 1 acre winter green house with 4 acres of miscanthus. So you'd get fuel, plastic for 3d printing, housing, AND food.(edited) JoMXL — 06/21/2021 Sounds awesome! Don't know much about it though, how feasible would the production process be at a small scale? Curious what a minimum viable system would look like. Kelosi — 06/21/2021 There's an interesting company called Clariant in Europe that's developing a process called sunliquid. They specialize in converting corn and wheat into bioethanol, but they're also one of the lead developers for developing miscanthus based bioethanol. Which they have a couple decades of EU funding for. Which is a second generation biofuel and produces a much higher cellulosic yield with a much lower upkeep. In fact, miscanthus reproduces using rhyzomes and not seeds, meaning you don't even have to replant. And the sunliquid process doesn't just convert cellulose into bioethanol, it also breaks down the 5 carbon sugars too, like xylan, and they claim its 50% more efficient than just cellulosic bioethanol. Also, instead of using sulfuric acid or trifluoroacetic acid to treat the miscanthus, they hydrolyze it, and use that hydrolyzed feedstock to produce enzymes from a bioculture which is then fed back into the main production line again to break down the cellulose and 5 chain sugars before moving onto a fermenter. The actual ethanol is produced in a very similar way to how beer is. The main limiting cost factor would be the cost of the tanks. You need tanks for hydrolysis, tanks for enzyme production, tanks for breaking down cellulose into sugar, tanks for fermentation, and finally tanks for storing ethanol itself, which also have to be pressurize and refrigerated. I figured this cost could be overcome with an additive manufacturing metal 3d printer like the one Relativity Space is developing to 3d print rockets. Its called the Stargate 3d printer. And it 3d prints these tanks out of steel filament specifically for maintaining, pressurizing and refrigerating rocket fuel. 1 [5:14 PM] You're right to question whether this is feasible on the small scale. But I think with a metal 3d printer like the Stargate 3d printer would make it feasible. I imagine this would be ideal in small, isolated communities, like DIY communities. I also used to live in Northern Canada, and northern communities as well as aboriginal communities are often not connected to infrastructure and the cost of things like food, housing and fuel are all through the roof. Many home still rely on propane for power. Tech like this could help those communities to become self sustainable. And there are also cold adapted grasses that could potentially be adapted to the sunliquid process, meaning that they could potentially be farmed further north as well. There's an entire class of enzymes in these plants called Ice Binding Enzymes that interact with the boundary between ice and water and can do things like lower freezing point or even seed ice molecules. Its a really interesting mechanism. Not to be confused with antifreeze proteins. Anyways, I think this tech could become the heart and circulatory system of an off grid community. You'd be able to produce power/fuel, indoor greenhouses and building materials using the same, renewable resource. 2 OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 I can't wait until grow tanks can be 3d printed reliably [5:19 PM] relativity space's 3d printing application could also enable cryogenic energy storage, because you'll be able to have incredible geometries [5:24 PM] I think cryogenic energy storage will ultimately be needed to supplement the grid, doubling capacity is just doubling tank size and adding a few more turbines to the outlet, not as efficient round trip but has useful byproducts like argon and oxygen, plus some other gases if you really wanted to build out a temperature based separation system LAES/CAES is like 60-70% round trip efficiency and li-ion is like 90% Nohbdy Ahtall — 06/21/2021 Small scale is best scale <3 OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 I want to make 50kw systems but the 3d printing is so hard to vertically integrate with the current state of patents just small homescale like 100 or 200 gallon dewars with a compressor and an electric turbine(edited) Kelosi — 06/21/2021 Have you looked into Solid Oxide Ammonia Fuel Cells? When I was researching the MOXIE project on the NASA perseverance rover for producing oxygen from the martian atmosphere, I came across a number of companies and applications for solid oxide fuel cells, including an reversible ammonia fuel cell reaction. The company developing it, Haldor Topsoe, claimed that the entire cycle, including decomposition, which in a solid oxide fuel cell you can produce an electric current from again at 75% efficiency. More efficient than any other fuel cell at the moment. They're proposing ammonia fuel cells as a possible affordable power storage solution in the future. Direct ethanol fuel cells are also solid oxide fuel cells and are potentially more efficient than just burning bioethanol, too. 1 Nohbdy Ahtall — 06/21/2021 Patents!? GAhhh OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 I will have to dive into this [5:27 PM] Really dreading when corporations are begging the government for record levels of handouts to beef up grid storage, there is so much room to do it profitably without the tax payer Nohbdy Ahtall — 06/21/2021 I think the problem is "companies". That word, that meaning, all it implies. Admittedly, if a company as a "if I fail, all knowledge is open source and free content" then, all is kinda well. This doesn't seem to happen much. [5:29 PM] I think "fallback-open-source" is a decent concept and I'd support more "companies" that did it. That, no matter what, all they accomplished becomes available. Depends on documentation and knowledge management of course! Kelosi — 06/21/2021 The company Clariant is actively trying develop other companies around the world. They seem like a very supportive group and are genuinely interested in sharing this tech and out competing fossil fuels. A lot of the miscanthus community is OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 I don't have a good solution for the state of patents in the US, let alone globally. Kelosi — 06/21/2021 what 50 kw system do you want to make? From bioethanol? [5:33 PM] Most patents expire after 12 years or so. I think they can be extended but eventually it is supposed to fall into the public domain. The patent for catamarans just expired for example OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 I know the company highview power ltd has a ton of patents in the CAES/LAES industry, they basically have it locked down, yet have only installed 400Mwh of capacity in 16 years [5:34 PM] they aren't using their IP as aggressively as they should be, and it just so happens to be a company filled with ex-oil industry chairs Nohbdy Ahtall — 06/21/2021 Public domain is problematic too, so is CC0, even though it's the best I can find other than ones for programming code. I think the solution is to incentivize this "knowledge to everyone is better than monetary gain" idea. I still think in the meantime it can be given gamified monetary and otherwise "survival-enhancing" benefit for pursuing this way. Kelosi — 06/21/2021 Well I'm a strong believer that you defeat big business with small business. This bioethanol solution was meant to make small communities self sustainable and develop strong local economies. Also, if you're not selling anything, DIY communities don't necessarily have to obey copyright or patent law. I always imagined moving onto a DIY tech commune where we rely on cloned robotic tech to develop. [5:37 PM] Which is partially where interest in open source ecology comes in @Kelosi what 50 kw system do you want to make? From bioethanol? OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 50kw home cryogenic system, benefits include: -free AC from the dewar -Excess heat can be utilized from appliances to heat the cryogenic fluid, spinning a turbine, so basically collecting heat that is expended during appliance use -potential fire supression system by dumping the dewar with high heat, so that the house fills with argon or nitrogen -adding more tanks can give you days to weeks of extra energy storage -can pull from the grid to store, or run off solar. -is only 60-70% efficient but the long list of benefits and the fact that it replaces your AC, and has the potential to increase Heater efficiency by generating pressure in the dewar -should be very very very scaleable, simple to install, easy to maintain [5:38 PM] -dewars can stay stable for weeks or months at a time, so leaving the tanks full doesn't have ill effects like battery systems [5:38 PM] -average life of the system is 20-30 years instead of 8-12 with battery systems Nohbdy Ahtall — 06/21/2021 Mmmm as an Arizona-born person, cooling is indeed a big one for me! I always feel like heating can be obtained by pulling heat from numerous useful machines into the living space xD OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 nevada born here [5:39 PM] right there with you [5:39 PM] wish everyone in the desert had one of these [5:39 PM] would change the game Nohbdy Ahtall — 06/21/2021 Got any easy-to-digest Youtube or videos about this system? I mean, hours-long is digestive to me admittedly haha OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 - I see the system becoming a 50 or 60 year system with the right vertical integration and manufacturing [5:40 PM] yessir [5:40 PM] [5:41 PM] https://youtu.be/Nu9zLOBi0-E YouTube Highview Power Highview Power Cryogenic Energy Storage System - Trailer [5:41 PM] this is their full scale system Kelosi — 06/21/2021 Your cryogenic system sounds like it would be easily integratable with bioethanol or ammonia fuel cell tech. [5:41 PM] Looks like you'd still need an external power supply anyways OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 if we look to tesla's octovalve for heat management, we can get a lot done, add in the incredible geometries available with a "stargate?" type printer, got a good time @Kelosi Looks like you'd still need an external power supply anyways OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 yeah, as a buffer so the turbine doesn't have to spin up all the time [5:43 PM] was thinking of something solid state so yeah the fuel cells seem like a good candidate Nohbdy Ahtall — 06/21/2021 Mmm such good visualization so far, lovely to learn from OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 what's the expected life of the ammonia fuel cells [5:43 PM] https://youtu.be/tMLu9Dtw9yI YouTube Just Have a Think Liquid Air Batteries. Literally energy from thin air. Seriously. Li... [5:43 PM] here's a good one that got me really thinking of a small scale home size system [5:44 PM] hell, people have thought of cryogenic storage in cars Kelosi — 06/21/2021 Solid oxide fuel cells are an emerging tech, but they're supposed to run continuously. They're also solid state so that helps. Some of the paper's I've read are targetting 90,000 hours of operation time OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 yeah, solid state caps are pushing 150-200k [5:48 PM] excited to see the inevitable improvements of SOFC Kelosi — 06/21/2021 Me too. I think the MOXIE experiment on the perserverence rover probably helped. If it can make enough oxygen to breathe and make fuel, then why not use it here on Earth? Now the tech has a lot of publicity and attention OwnerOfOwn — 06/21/2021 ugh oxygen on the moon and mars sounds nice [5:51 PM] so could we recover the ammonia from water in agricultural areas for this use case? Kelosi — 06/21/2021 I like to think about some of the unconventional uses for that tech here on Earth. Like mining. Imagine if we could just generate oxygen underground without having to pump it down. You could build entire facilities in underground aquafers [5:52 PM] and underground settlements [5:52 PM] If we're going to be living underground on mars or the moon anyway, then why not start at home first. June 22, 2021 yfgame — 06/22/2021 Hi, @Kelosi ! @yfgame Hi, @Kelosi ! Kelosi — 06/22/2021 hello @Kelosi hello yfgame — 06/22/2021 Hi! What are your interests? You seem knowledgeable! @Kelosi I like to think about some of the unconventional uses for that tech here on Earth. Like mining. Imagine if we could just generate oxygen underground without having to pump it down. You could build entire facilities in underground aquafers JoMXL — 06/22/2021 That's awesome, curious if there would be any interest for such experiments in places like Coober Pedy (australian opal mining town). It's very close to the surface, but could still be interesting as a first playground for such technologies. Internet access might be rough though, but you could try some local networking system plus a "digital library" (fe. kiwix server, IPFS node...) to minimize the traffic requirements Arcane BOT — 06/22/2021 @JoMXL has reached level 2. GG! -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 well, here in Catalonia for instance; foreign investors complain that most of the 90% local family businesses 'don't wanna 'grow'' - not only because of getting wrenches thrown between their legs by Espanistan but more often because of things are easy at certain levels (5-10 people) - after a while sticking to them; I perfectly agree - at the end being good in some niche is still the thing, aka happy minimal bottom effort looser @yfgame Hi! What are your interests? You seem knowledgeable! Kelosi — 06/22/2021 I have a lot of interests. Particle physics, material science, biochemistry, comparative genomics, linguistics, human migration, exoplanetology, etc. I think intelligence is a product of effort, so the only limit on our intelligence is our willingness to learn. I could go in depth each of those examples, but I think you're asking me in terms of what my technological interests are. I'm somewhat obsessed with sustainable technology. I grew up in Northern Canada, so I'm always imagining ways to make those communities sustainable, like ways to lower the cost of housing, food and so on. I've been interested in robotics lately as well. I think we're on the verge of an autonomous construction revolution and think that western nations should be pushing for autonomous labor in order to compete with cheap, third world labor with poorer labor standards. Lately I've been reading about the Fischer-Tropsch process, and gas to liquids processes. If we could produce bioethanol we could pretty much apply most of our fossil fuel based chemistry to it without having to rely on fossil fuels. I've even been looking up ways to produce polyimides from organic substrates, which there have been a couple interesting papers on lately, for the purposes of laser induced graphene. I imagine that someday, a fully plant derived, fully plastic humanoid robot might be possible. And that indoor farms will be able to produce all the materials they need for their own housing and well as their own robotics. I basically just run these scenarios over and over in my head but continue to put further constraints on them by reading up on anything I don't know or am not certain about. Plus as you can probably tell I'm a hard empiricist and strongly value evidence based reasoning, which helps keep my scenarios grounded. @-- osr-plastic.org -- well, here in Catalonia for instance; foreign investors complain that most of the 90% local family businesses 'don't wanna 'grow'' - not only because of getting wrenches thrown between their legs by Espanistan but more often because of things are easy at certain levels (5-10 people) - after a while sticking to them; I perfectly agree - at the end being good in some niche is still the thing, aka happy minimal bottom effort looser Kelosi — 06/22/2021 That's very different from what we have here in Canada. We have very few niches, and very little market diversity. Its expensive to run a small business but it gets easier to run a big business. But its already gotten to the point where our market is pretty much paralyzed and we're just allowing the housing market to climb in a desperate effort to keep the economy from tanking. Tbh I think we're going to have a devastating crash. 1 [6:12 PM] Here's a graph i found recently on how severe the housing crisis actually is in Canada [6:12 PM] lesbean — 06/22/2021 oh gosh i wasnt aware of that 1 [6:14 PM] im in the US @Kelosi That's very different from what we have here in Canada. We have very few niches, and very little market diversity. Its expensive to run a small business but it gets easier to run a big business. But its already gotten to the point where our market is pretty much paralyzed and we're just allowing the housing market to climb in a desperate effort to keep the economy from tanking. Tbh I think we're going to have a devastating crash. -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 interesting - CA was actually kinda hope model to me, just to know that US in somewhat in dry towels; However, I can't say it's a good thing - just moved into a industrial area with mostly 1000sqm plots - but it feels really great and stable(edited) [6:15 PM] not sure housing market is still a good index though ... Kelosi — 06/22/2021 Everyone thinks Canada looks amazing on the outside. That's the problem with Canada. Its all for show. All of our services. Its just so we can pretend to be a great place. Canada struggle with a little America complex. If you look on Canadian media there's always an article "7 reasons why Canada is the best place to live." Just canadians inflating their egos in competition with the US. But in reality we're basically just a wealthy suburbs. We are definitely not a meritocracy. We were never capitalist and had state run monopolies up until the 90s. We're not technically secular and have state run religious schools in 6 provinces and territories. We have a separate but equal two state solution with aboriginals. There's a huge controversy with clean drinking water on aboriginal reservations right now. Most of them don't even have access to roads. They're completely trapped. -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 yes- I've got this part some time back lesbean — 06/22/2021 yeah, Im always like kinda scared of some of the stuff going on in the US but i also acknowledge moving will just bring its own set of issues @-- osr-plastic.org -- not sure housing market is still a good index though ... Kelosi — 06/22/2021 A lot of Canadian youth are leaving Canada. We can't afford to live here anymore lesbean — 06/22/2021 yikes -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 no different from many other places though [6:24 PM] VIP & £$%^$%^ sells ... lesbean — 06/22/2021 wait shouldnt we like move to general with this Kelosi — 06/22/2021 Yeah, Canada is shooting itself in the foot. And regarding the housing market... all of our exports are dropping. Our government is putting all of its eggs in the housing market. Its a huge fucking mess [6:25 PM] I honestly don't think Canada will exist anymore in 100 years -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 'wait shouldnt we like move to general with this' & 'Its a huge fucking mess' : it's Discord - a huge fucking mess - coms are screwed with this RT crap though Kelosi — 06/22/2021 if you want [6:26 PM] thats basically all there is to say about it though -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 'I honestly don't think Canada will exist anymore in 100 years' - let's see what the water does to the rest of the hemisphere - technically - everybody will move up or north .... [6:27 PM] Remember 'Dear Miami' (almighty Roysin Murphy) Kelosi — 06/22/2021 Yeah, which is why Canada needs to develop its northern infrastructure. We're not. We just issued our first naval ship to patrol our nothern waters. Like wtf Canada. -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 To me as german, living in Spain, CA is no different as AU; thanks to the honest gov ads https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6vvpQEaRdk YouTube thejuicemedia Honest Government Ad | Visit Australia! (Season 2) Kelosi — 06/22/2021 Here's the difference between Canada and the Australia. An australian will be honest even if it means being offensive. A canadian will be polite, even if it means lying to your face.(edited) -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 granted; true thing I now perfectly myself [6:32 PM] time for bed; was a pleasure, guys Kelosi — 06/22/2021 Its the same as when I was living in Alamaba. I actually respected alabamians more that Canadians, because even though they were bigoted, they were actually honest about it and said it outloud, which creates opportunitites for them to learn from their mistakes. Canadians don't get that far. We pretend that there's no problem and keep on moving [6:33 PM] Bed? I just woke up! And its 5pm here -- osr-plastic.org -- — 06/22/2021 yeah, in 7 hours - I gonna rock 12 - 16 hours long metal & code (edited) [6:33 PM] like in the last 2 years - with no real reward [6:37 PM] ' I actually respected alabamians more that Canadians' - now you're saying it ... I confirm; had a great client there, never shy handing out NO sweets